“Why are you here, what are you passionate about?'

If we look at the big picture, this question – in one form or another – is present from the time we're able to walk. Remember when your parents and teachers asked you what you wanted to be when you were 4? The possibilities seemed endless and awesome.

The question persists as we grow up, but each new ask comes with a layer of additional pressure. In high school, we're asked what we want to study in college. In college, we're asked to choose a major and understand the implications it has on our career. After graduation, it's asked by everyone from interviewers, to friends, to colleagues, and parents. But at this point, the stakes are high.

Earlier on, things were a bit more fluid. Didn't like a class? Drop it and pick another one. Found out your major wasn't for you? No worries, there are 30+ others to choose from and you can start tomorrow. Once you enter the real world, not know what you want to do can be one of the most crippling things.

It's not as simple as hopping between industries and roles every month until something makes sense. On top of that, it feels like every moment you spend trying to figure it out is delaying your success and your happiness.

This is one of the most common frustrations I hear from the Cultivated Culture community, so I brought in passion, purpose, and soul-searching expert Jessica Smith to help you find some answers.

Jess built her site Jessness Required on the concept of “ness.” Your “ness” is your mission, your calling, your purpose. It's what you're meant to do. What makes you excited to get out of bed in the morning and what helps guide you when tough decisions need to be made. Everything that you stand for is your “ness,” and it's great because you can wrap it all up in one word simply by adding “ness” to the end of your name.

I have my Austiness, Jess has her Jessness, and you have your “ness.”

In today's interview, Jess is going to share her advice for getting in touch with yourself and discovering what you really want to do with your life. She talks about her personal journey, the steps she recommends for her clients, and shares some amazing stories along the way.

If you love what she has to say, Jess recently released a book called Your Twenties: No One Ever Teaches You How To Grow Up which is your “syllabus” for managing your twenties and all the struggles that come with it.

Video Interview

Audio Interview

Full Interview Transcript

Austin: Hey everyone, welcome to another Cultivated Culture expert interview. I have Jessica Smith here with me and Jessica is the founder of jessnessrequired.com where she's doing a whole lot of awesome stuff. Jess, you are helping people find careers they love, you're helping people start side hustles with work that's actually meaningful to them. On top of that, you wrote a book called Your Twenties which is helping people who are in the early stages of their career actually find themselves and find what they want to do. I'm super excited to have you here today, thanks so much for joining me.

Jess: I'm super stoked. Austin, you reached out and I got to tell you, our conversation, you had done your research, you had looked at all of the different avenues, and it's just really good to know that the message that I'm trying to express is coming across. I'm super stoked for the conversation we have today.

Austin: Definitely, so am I because you're going to be talking about something that I find really fascinating but I also think that I have a little bit of trouble getting across, and that is, as you put it, finding your ness. For everybody listening, and I think you could probably explain it better, but I think the way that I got it was basically your ness is your essence, if you will, what you're all about, your purpose. I think that's so cool because, without that, you're not going to be able to have a job that you love. You may stumble upon one that's okay but chances are low that you'll be able to actually go out and find something that you truly love because you just don't know what that is.

For me, when I started my career, I knew exactly what I wanted. I was one of those lucky few people who just was dead set on a single goal and that worked out. I did have to make a couple pivots along the way but that was the end game the whole time. I think a lot of people– We spend four years in college, we get our degree, but we don't get a lot of experience to what the real world is actually going to be like. Then, a lot of things get thrown our way, like bureaucracy within companies, and job descriptions that silo you in red tape, and all this stuff. Then we think, “Okay. I went to college for four years and that should be worth something. I don't like what I'm doing, maybe I'll be able to hop into something else.” Then that process turns out to be really really hard. I'm really really excited to have you here to basically share with us how to find your ness, how to find what you're all about. Tell us a little bit more about, first, what you do and what ness means to you, and maybe what what jessness is all about?

Jess: Totally. You touched on a couple things that are really meaningful to me. One of the things that inspired me to write my book is that the essence of when you graduate, whether it be high school or college, you have all of these years that are structured, that are step-by-step, that guide you to each next step in your life, from an educational standpoint. Also, somewhat at an experiential standpoint too, but the whole idea of having, “Hey, you get to that next grade, or that next level, in school and you have a syllabus, and it spells it out, what you can expect.”

To touch on what you said about all of the career world is, after you graduate, it's just up to you to figure out what that next step is. It can be very confusing, in today's world, in that there's all these different messages coming at us, there's all these different things and questions. Especially, one of the questions that I talked a lot about in my book, is that, “What are you doing next? What's next? What's next? What's next?” You're supposed to have it all figured out. You're raised to know, when you have that question approach you, have the answer. Yet, I think a lot of people have the answer but not yet trust the answer inside.

The whole idea of your ness is really this distinguished approach to what your logical mind is telling you. Your logical mind is, you're supposed to have it all figured out, you're supposed to have a game plan, you're supposed to have the perfect answer, you're supposed to do this, this, and this, the external pressure and expectations that come at you. Your ness is that inner voice of wisdom that I think that each of us is born with, and it's that voice that we don't always trust, initially, because it doesn't match what our external expectation view is asking us to do.

I'll give you an example, like I lived in New Zealand for two years, after I graduated from college, and I had it all figured out. I had this guy, I was living with this guy, and I was like, “This is my person forever.” I had a great job in the tourism industry that I loved, and I thought, “God, this is great, I've got my bus route memorized, I've got this great guy, and I've got this perfect job,” when, in reality, what happened was that was my logical mind. Yet deep internally my ness was just whispering to me this quiet message of, “It's time to go home.” While it didn't make sense at all from my logical mind, from a deep internal wisdom perspective, if I hadn't have listened to it, I would have never left New Zealand and never would have been on the path that I am now. Your ness is that voice that you don't initially trust that doesn't always make sense right away, however, your ness is that voice that's going to guide you to each next best step in your life. It's this transition from your head to your heart.

With career, if you can guide your career through your heart, I think you're not always guided to the most what makes sense to everyone else in your life but it'll make the most sense to what your purpose is and what will lead you to that perfect job, if you will.

Austin: No, definitely. It's interesting I find that that little voice it usually doesn't make sense logically like you said when you first hear it but then if you do follow it and you take action against it and build towards it when you get there you realize that, “This is actually what I was meant to be doing.” It's so tough because your logical mind is saying, “No, that's crazy. You want to be a photographer and quit your job, get out of here, there's no way you can do that,” or anything. That's the cool part about it, because I think that we do truly know what we want on a certain level, but then we have the societal expectations and the expectations of our parents.

I love that you mentioned the fact that we're supposed to have it figured out. I still work full-time and I just had a meeting with my manager, she wanted to put together my career plans, there were boxes for the next two to three years, five to seven years and nine to ten years. She's like, “What do you want to be doing nine to ten years from now?” I'm like, “That's like 33% of my life.” I'm 27 and in the past five years I've had four different jobs and now I've started this business on the side and all this craziness has happened. I don't even know what I'm going to be doing a month from now.

I have no idea how you could expect me to know nine or ten years down the road, but people get asked that in interviews. It's like, “Five years from now what are you going to be doing?” It doesn't seem like it's acceptable to be like, “Well, I don't know, I'm still figuring it out.” I'm really glad that you mentioned that because it really resonated with me. When people are trying to figure out their ness and listen to this little voice, let's say that I'm just coming to you and I'm confused, I'm 22, 25, somewhere around there, I just got out of college. I followed everybody else's advice, I'm not satisfied, I don't really know what I want to do. What's the first step?

Jess: The first step is to find a way to connect with that voice within. For some it's working out and it's being active and for some it's shutting the heck up and taking some time in the morning to be quiet with yourself, for others it's journaling. I think that's what makes it so fun when I'm coaching people, is that, that little voice within you will be accessed in different ways. Part of it is about cultivating a relationship. I used your word cultivating-

[laughter]

Jess: -a relationship with yourself. If that's self-care, if that's writing, if that's pausing before you make a decision and asking yourself, “What is my ness asking me to do?”

The fun part about this is actually you add ness to the back of your name and there's a customized fun vocab word for your own. You don't have to say to your friend like, “I'm listening to that inner voice of wisdom.” You could say, “I'm just listening to my awesomeness,” and they're like, “Okay, cool that sounds like awesome.”

Austin: I love it, yes.

Jess: It makes it a little bit more broad. The first step is just to start asking yourself, and for me it started very small and it started with I think trust is the seed that's planted with listening to this voice, in trusting what it's saying to you and then just testing it out.

For me it started with, “What am I going to do this weekend? Okay, this is what my logical mind is telling me to do and here's what my ness is telling me to do.” Then after a couple different trials and error you've realized that, if I do what my logical, what everyone else is expecting of me and what is being asked of me in all these different ways then that's what my weekend looks but when I trust my justness and I do what it's asking me to do from an internal perspective, that's what my weekend looks like. The outcomes are quite different. You'll start to notice that your inner voice of wisdom will never lead you astray, it never will. Even in a work setting. You mentioned earlier the external pressures of what today's world looks like, especially in the career world, and moving up, and all of that, there's going to be a lot of conflicting views and opinions and options that come at you. Especially when you're interviewing for a new job, it's almost like every single person that you've ever met in your life suddenly is an expert on what you should do with your life. Isn't that funny? It's like, all of a sudden, everyone's just like, “Oh no, that's a horrible job,” this and that. That's a real test, if someone is interviewing and applying for a job, that's a perfect way to check in with your ness, like, “Should I apply for this job?” and give it a try. If you apply and have that first-round interview, if that first-round interview, if your ness says, “Yes, interview for that job.” If that first-round interview is just perfect, then great. If your logical mind's like, “No, this is what my parents will want of me, this is what everyone would expect of me,” and you interview for that job, it's just start noticing how it feels when you make decisions from your head and your ness.

Austin: Awesome. Yes, definitely. It's a huge difference. I always tell people, “The worst thing you can do is accept a job just because it was offered to you.” I think a lot of people out there feel like the job search is so arduous, as it is, and you're just so happy to have gotten so far and gotten that interview, that it's so easy to just accept it and overlook any of the little red flags or things that bothered you. Because maybe there's a bigger salary or, like you said, mom and dad will be happy, or your friends will be like, “Oh, you work at where? That's so cool.” If it's not for you, then who cares?

I love that you mentioned connecting with your ness, that little voice inside of you, you mentioned exercise, you mentioned journaling, you mentioned meditation, or mindfulness. In some aspect, talk to us a little bit more about that because I think– I'm one of these people, when I first got into this whole game of wanting to try to figure out my career but then, also, starting my side business, I thought all that stuff was- except for exercise -was all like, “Meh.” Journaling? Not for me. Maybe for middle-school girls who are going through some stuff, or mindfulness for Tibetan monks or people like the crunchy granola folks. No offense to any of those people, but I just thought that wasn't for me, and now I do all of these things.

Every morning, I sit down and I meditate. I go to the gym with my fiance and I have a journal where I write down some stuff. I think that it's very personal, but one of the toughest things, in my opinion, was getting started. Because people are like, “Meditation is good,” and then, you go read about meditation and there's like 600 different kinds and how long should you do it, and how do you know if you're doing it right. How do people decide first between those three things and what's the best way for them just to get started?

Jess: Just to dive in. Yes, [laughs] I'm laughing because I've been– You jump into something, you're like, “Okay, I'll see what it's like online.” You look at it online, there's 600 articles [chuckles] about it, and you're like, “Okay, now I'm not going there.” Sometimes the self-care world, the meditation and the mindfulness world can be super overwhelming when you're going online because it's like, like you said, how do you know you're doing it right? If you're a type A Capricorn like me, or just someone that wants to do good at everything they do and is somewhat obsessed with that, then you want to know that you're doing it right, you're doing it effectively.

Here's the catch with all of that stuff. If you're thinking about going online and looking at all these articles to make sure that you're doing it right, you're already focusing too much away from yourself and you're relying too much on external reassurance and validation for what you're doing. My first piece of advice would be stop looking online, stop asking every single other person what they're doing on LinkedIn, or Instagram, or whatever, because that is where I get caught up every single week when I'm not sure and I'm just in that incubated space of like, “I'm not sure if this idea is right or this is the right approach or whatever.” That's where I get stuck in this external validation and external expectations where I start to look for other stuff outside of myself.”

My first piece of advice would be take a couple minutes every single morning before your brain is inundated with other people's ideas, thoughts, and opinions, and just put the first question that comes to mind on a piece of paper like, “What do I need to accomplish today? What is essential to me? What questions do you have?” and just start to cultivate a communication between your inner voice of wisdom, like your ness and stop relying so much on these external pieces because it's easier said than done for sure. It's still something that I have to check in with daily but in today's society, in today's world with everything being so instant we need to remember that sometimes the deepest wisdom and the most strong guidance that we have within isn't going to be immediate. That's the other thing it's checking in with yourself isn't going to be as easy as going online checking your notifications and saying, “Oh, I have 15 today, yesterday I had 10 whatever. I'm better today than yesterday”. Sometimes it's just being patient and I think that's sometimes the hardest part.

Austin: Yes, definitely. When you do get started and you're getting the flow, you're understanding a little bit more about what your ness wants versus what other people are asking of you and with that external validation that you mentioned, it's still not very easy at least in my opinion to then take action on it. You may be getting a little bit more clear and you may suddenly know, “Oh, hey I want to do this thing.” I mentioned dropping everything and being a photographer before but if you are in this job or this position, where things are somewhat stable or you've met the expectations, it can be hard to just drop all of that and dive right into this new thing. Your advice so far has been, just dive right in. I'm curious to know once you reach that stage, where you start to get a little bit more clear on what it is you are looking for. What's the next step? Do you test it out first or do you just say, “Screw it” and jump right in? How would you handle that?

Jess: I think, I'm always a big proponent of testing it because part of it, it's a balance. You have to trust yourself and sometimes dive right in and choose the decision that doesn't always make sense logically. Part of it is that, but however, if we're talking about leaving your day job that pays your rent, pays your electricity, your phone bill, and feeds you. No, diving right in is probably not the best approach however, you can test it in today's society with like meetups.com. You could start a meetup.com group for 15 bucks a month and test out if your idea is something that is gaining traction around a certain topic. You can reach out on LinkedIn and have informational interviews with people that are in the role that looks somewhat interesting to you and start to research what is the career path that got those people to that role and set up some networking opportunities there. You could also, while you have a day job, something that I've been a big proponent of in my own career is going to different trainings in the topics that I want to learn more about and invest in yourself while you do have this job that's paying for your rent and all this other stuff. Start to strategically set aside some money so you can start to network with the people that are doing what you want to do. Those are all ways that you can test if the path, if what your thinking is, and what your ness is guiding you to do. You can set up these assignments to see if your logical mind will get on board and that usually helps to align the two.

Austin: Awesome, definitely yes. I like the point about, taking courses while you still have your job and a lot of times I found companies will pay for some outside training if you can tie it back to the company. Some company where like– At Microsoft, we actually have access to all. We've bought LinkedIn, we just acquired them, now LinkedIn learning which used to be Lynda, we have access to that. If you're lucky enough to have that, that's amazing but at some startups before, I wanted to get involved in– Everybody at some point who didn't know what they wanted to do. I thought of software developer because you hear about all the money they make and all this stuff. I wanted to take a coding class and it was 3,000 bucks and I did not have 3,000 bucks. I talked my company into paying for it and I was like, “Here's how it's going to help me in my day job X, Y, and Z.” They kind of got on board with that. If you can make that connection too that's a great way to do it and have the company pay for it. It's also you're getting your salary it's paying your bills but then you're also getting this added bonus. If they pay for a $3,000 course that you would want to take anyway, that's like a $3,000 bonus after taxes right in your pocket. That's awesome. I love that one.

Jess: Be your own biggest advocate. No one's going to care about your career more than you. Start to strategically think about how you can use your day job to leverage what you want to learn about and also where you want to go. I think that's a great point Austin because it's like, “Hey if you see this opportunity if you can connect the dots for your employer then boom it is like a bonus exactly.”

Austin: Yes. no, definitely awesome. When we're doing this stuff like when we figure out kind of what our ness is there's going to be pushed back from those external sources, from friends, family, even the people that you trust the most and go to for advice and all this stuff. There will be some friction there. How do you recommend kind of overcoming that and just trusting yourself to know that you're making the right decision? Because those people tend to get on board later.

Once it's all good and it's worked out everybody's like, “I knew you could do it.” and you're like “That's not what you said on day 10.” How do you handle that?

Jess: That's so true and that is something that I think I go through every single new time that I make a new decision. There's all– And the people that are like that are some of my most trusted people in my life. Like my boyfriend, for instance, he's not going to be like, “Great idea, awesome.” for everything I say. He's going to want to know and he helps me from a different point of view walk through why each– Especially, business decision because I initially I always want to do everything and do it all and do it right now. He's always like, “Now how does this fit in to the overall plan?” and it's like, “Yes, [chuckles] it's good to have those people.”

Austin: Yes. Don't ask me that it's not important to me, you just need to do it.

Jess: I just need to do it, yes. It’s also like when he sees me completely overwhelmed and just beside myself he's like– There is- I think it's identifying the people that truly have your back, want you to be successful and understand your why. I think what's helped me in identifying who I want to use as my life adviser is if people understand my why and they understand what gets me out of bed in the morning around that topic then I will trust and give weight to their opinions. If there's somewhat– Because like I said before as soon as you start interviewing for a new job everyone seems is your perfect life adviser or something they want to know your life best.

It's like you have to pick and choose which people those are but if people are understanding your why and you do a good job of explaining what that is then listen to them, hear them out, see if they have ulterior or alternative points of view that maybe you haven't thought about and the rest leave it at the door. Forget about it because there's going to be tons of people like that the tall poppy syndrome where they don't want you rise into the top and making us all look bad, that's always something.

There's also people that are just going to be forever doubters but if they understand where you're going and you can identify that it's genuine then I think it's just kind of again, checking in with your ness. Is this person genuine, is this person aligned with what I'm hearing inside me and your ness will get louder. The more you trust it, the more conversation you’ll start to have with it, the greater it will be. Soon after a while it'll speak louder than your logical mind because sometimes it's the doubter.

Austin: For sure. It's really interesting and I actually did a couple of studies on your why which you just mentioned. People who were pretty clear on their why and they could give you the reasoning behind why they were doing something and it was aligned with their personal vision. They were much more likely to stick through to the end despite obstacles and challenges et cetera than people who couldn't really tell you why they were doing something.

That really resonates with me because you know it's never going to be easy. Anything that you do in life whether it's finding a career, or starting a business, or getting married, or having any kind of relationship there's going to be ups and downs. If you know deep down why you're doing something then it means a lot to you. You're so much more likely to push through those hard times and actually make it work whereas if you're not quite sure it's very easy to just be like, “Aah whatever.” and move on to the next thing so know definitely.

There's a ton of crazy stuff out there when it comes to figuring out what people should be doing and how they should find themselves. You talk to a lot of people who are struggling with their why and their ness and figuring it out, what is the craziest misconception or a mistake out there right now that people are making when it comes to figuring out what they're truly all about and what their purpose is?

Jess: I think the biggest thing that I hear over and over is that once you start something, like if you start off in a career you have to stick in that career forever. There is no pivoting there is no turning around. Realizing that I am driving the bus here I can make a left, I can make a right, I can turn this whole bus around, I can make this bus fly, I can take it underwater. I think people get into this mindset of– I recognize why and part of it is because I’ve spent all this time in this career.

Why would I waste all this time, all this energy, all the stuff that I’ve gained and all of this expertise that I’ve built in my career why would I leave that? I know starting over sucks, it completely sucks. I was meditating daily up until last Thursday I was on day 93. I had not meditated since then because the thought of starting over drives me insane.

I have to start, I'm going to start again, but I'm just waiting because I'm not ready to come to terms with me skipping a day. That's not the point the point is I am driving this bus I can start over every single day and if I have to start over every other day then I’ll do that. I think people a lot of the times give away their power to the company they work for, or the employer that they're interviewing with, or just the career path that they signed up for in the beginning.

When in reality it's like you can change career paths if the company that you're interviewing with isn't valuing your time or your skills you can say no you never have to go to the next round with them. Then the third is just if you're at a company and it doesn't value you they don't own you. I think it's the empowerment piece that I find over and over that sometimes people just need a little kick in the butt but also just a reminder that you are the owner of your life.

If your ness is guiding you to say something different than what it looks like in the direction you're going, you can change directions at any time.

Austin: Definitely. I love your little meditation anecdote too. My fiancee and I use insight timer I don't know if you–

Jess: Me too.

Austin: Yes, awesome. She got to like day 93 as well somewhere up in the 90s and then she missed one and she was devastated. I'm not nearly as disciplined so we just stopped paying attention to the daily thing because it was too stressful. We try to do it daily and we do it on weekend but yes, it's funny because you're on that streak, then it ends and then you feel like instead of just getting right back on the horse you're like, “I put in all that work.” It's so funny but– Go ahead.

Jess: The same with a career. You spend 10 years in a career and you're like, “I can't switch directions.” You stay on this miserable path when really, as you said, get right back on the horse and start again. Yes.

Austin: Definitely. One of the coolest things that I've found everybody always says you read it all on the Forbes articles and stuff like– You're the average of the five people you hang out with so hang out with amazing people or whatever. I definitely think that's true but I think it's even more true when you're trying to make a pivot because one of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever gotten is only take advice from people who already have what you want.

That was a big light bulb moment for me in my career when I had done all the stuff that I was supposed to do and I was taking my parents advice, my friends advice, my teachers advice, the career counselor at my university's advice and none of it was working and I just couldn't figure it out. Then I heard that and I was like, “Wow, that makes total sense.” Because none of these people– They've all done very well in their own but none of them have walked the same path that I’ve walked.

Whether it's a career, or starting a business, or even a hobby like finding a place where people who are already doing that hang out and inundating yourself is one of the most helpful things you can do. You mentioned meetup.com, reddit it's one of my favorite sites for that because there's a subreddit for literally everything out there. I just started brewing my own beer and there's a homebrew subreddit and you just learn all this stuff by hanging out in there.

You don't even have to participate, you can just sit in there and soak it up. Then I think if people also put themselves out there and be like, “Hey I am currently doing X but I want to be where you guys are at, has anybody else had experience with it?” Chances are you're not the only person out there that's tried to go through this and there’s a lot of people who have successfully done it. Those people exist and they're the best people to learn from by far. That's just something that I’ve seen that I’ve found to be really, really helpful.

Jess: What you're talking about right now is the expand, you're expanding your mindset to know what's possible. Sometimes I think it takes seeing it, and seeing it in action and hearing about how someone went from A to B to C to D to know that it's possible for you.

If you can recognize yourself in someone whether it be on a reddit forum, or in a group on LinkedIn, or someone that you see on Instagram, if you can recognize part of yourself in that person it expands your mindset. Just enough to go, “Okay.” To start thinking outside the box and thinking about how you could potentially put that into action for your own life, I love that.

Austin: I get made fun of because we have a 400 square foot apartment here in New York and they're under my bed and my fiancée is like, “Am I sleeping on top of beer now?” I don't even know what's happening.

Jess: Yes, basically.

Austin: Then you talk to people in the subreddit and they're like, “Dude I’ve been doing that for 50 years. My wife doesn't give a crap anymore.” and you're like, “Oh, there are other people that are get in it.”

Jess: Yes. It's under the bed is fine, you got it.

Austin: [laughs] Awesome, cool. Jess you've shared a ton of great advice with us today. What is your number one piece of advice your number one takeaway for people listening who are feeling lost they don't know quite what they want to do? What would you tell them to take away and take action on immediately after listening to this?

Jess: Is it bad to say buy my book? [laughs]

Austin: I don't think so.

Jess: Here's why, and this isn't just like tooting my own horn because I hate that which you have to get good at, let's say change or grow your career. You have to be okay with your– Here I am setting an example I guess of that. My book talks about what your ness is, it talks about how to connect with it, and then there's five key sections in the book that helps you connect with your ness in all those different areas in your life.

There's a career section, you mentioned Austin, there's a healthy mind-body acceptance relationships, and also self-love. I'll tell you in order to truly progress in your career and take it to that next level you have to be taking good care of yourself and thinking of all those five areas of your life. I would really recommend joining the book club that I have to connect with other fine people. Really the book will guide you through how to connect with your ness and then also has interactive activities that you can do in terms of journaling or taking action in different areas. That's from a toot my own horn perspective but also it would be practical as a next step.

Austin: Now I love it. You can buy it on Amazon, how much is it?

Jess: It's 11.99.

Austin: Perfect, awesome. Yes. The same as any other book but this is exactly if you're not sure what you want to do and you want to take the next step in your career, 11 bucks for all that information to make it happen is a crazy return on investment. I love it as a next step and beyond that people can find you at jessnessrequired.com. Then you have your two podcasts, you have Expressness radio and you have- is it Valley Vibe?

Jess: That Valley Vibe.

Austin: That Valley Vibe. Awesome, cool. Well thank you so much, Jess, I really, really appreciate you stopping by. I learned a ton and I had a blast chatting with you I'm sure everybody listening did as well. Thanks so much and we'll talk to you again soon.

Jess: Thank you so much.

Austin: Take care.

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